On Sunday afternoon March 23rd, I had the pleasure of interviewing Avraham Melamed, a member of the Isreali delegation in Munich during the 1972 Olympic games.
Avraham Melamed |
Click on picture or name to navigate to his information page
Do you still think about what happened in Munich and how has that experience changed your life?
Of course I think about it and I don't know if it changed my life directly a lot except for the fact that I keep thinking about it, you know, how it came about and how the world, Israel, my friends, and I reacted to it so in that way it changed my reality but it also changed quite a bit the reality of how the Olympic Games are conducted, you know, order is no longer assumed; every country, the host, of the Olympics since then has had to put a lot in to security.
Looking back, what do you think your teammates could have done to prevent this tragedy; would you have been allowed to have weapons in the room to defend yourselves?
I do not know if it would help much because by the time people came to whatever it is..., people were sleeping at the time that it happened, so I mean unless you consider the Olympics like a military operation where everybody is going to sleep with their rifle and so on and so forth. The only thing that could have made any difference would be if there was a guard in front of the Israeli residence, but there wasn't.
Do you think the terrorists would have been bold enough to attempt their heinous plan in another country, or was the fact that Germany was being so lax with security a major factor?
I have to tell you that I think it is a non-accurate perception that Germany was lacking in security. You know, I was in two Olympic Games before that and the Olympics in Munich were by far, better organized from the perspective of allowing access into the Olympic Village or rather disallowing access into the Olympic Village for people who shouldn't be there. Every Olympics before that was much more relaxed, much more lax; there was no security whatsoever and it was just one huge sports festival. The Germans tried to do whatever they could to be more organized about it and they were more organized about it, but they didn't have weapon-bearing guards. Nobody had it before; it was the first time it happened. I think the location of Germany, I'm not sure if it was contemplated as such, but remember at the time, you know, the whole Palestinian terrorist thing was just beginning and emerging, you know, before that there were few attacks on Israeli airplanes and things of that nature, but it was really in it's infancy and they were sort of defining their reality based on their imagination and pension for terrorism and grabbing the world's attention. But it wasn't that the Germans did less than anyone else before them; they did more
Is it the responsibility of the International Olympic Committee or the hosting country to make sure that all of the athletes are safe?
I don't really know, I'm not an attorney, and I don't know much about it, but you have to recall that Munich was the first time that this had happened this is when the issue first came to be, there was nothing like this before nobody before took the Olympic platform as a stage for their plight and trying to play it as a political stage. So I don't know if there was any rule but obviously it makes sense that it is the hosting country because the Olympic Committee is very limited in its jurisdiction over local police and things like this. So to me it makes sense and I'm not an attorney but it makes sense that the responsibility lies within the country that won the honor and responsibility of running good Olympics. That would make sense to me; I don't think it is the Olympic Committee.
Have you been to an Olympic Game since Munich?
I have been to Atlanta, to visit some friends and some people on the Israeli team in 1996, and there too was incident and, you know, this was long after the Olympics in Munich. I don't know exactly how much security they had in Atlanta, but trying to prevent some mad person or mad people from doing mayhem is very difficult. The question is to what extent are you going to try and implement whatever it is you are trying to implement? What stops some crazy people from going, for example, on any bus in your town, and starting to kill people? Are you going to put an armed person on each bus all the time? No. If someone has enough chutzpa and enough organizational skills, they can do mayhem anywhere they want. It is very difficult to stop life because somebody can go crazy. So, you know, there is just so much people can do. The unfortunate thing is that at the time, it wasn't even in the mind of people that something like this could happen, so it's very difficult to say what could have been done. Even if there were armed people guarding the fence over which the terrorists jumped into the Olympic Village, it's not like they would put 24-hour guards every 5 meters of the fence. Somebody would go there and walk around and come back and walk around, and people who know what they're doing can sit and wait until this person goes around with his rifle and turns his back, and then jump over the fence, you know. It's very difficult to say what could have happened if whatever, what the Germans could have done. But the Israelis should have had a guard because the Israelis knew that terrorism was a possibility, and as far as I know there was a security person that traveled with his team, but I don't know where he was in that particular instance; I really don't know, I always ask myself this question.
Do you think the Israeli athletes feel safer now at the Olympic Games?
For sure, everybody feels safer now. First of all, the hosting country provides a lot more security; just a control of who goes into the Olympic Village, and who doesn't go into the Olympic Village and all of that stuff. It is much better organized now, the lesson has been learned and it is much more secure. And you have a tag if you don't have a tag you don't go in and there is much better security all over. So I'm sure not only Israelis, but everybody is feeling safer. But I wouldn't be surprised if it is the case that Israel is also asking every hosting country to have some security people with it, armed security people.
If you had to rate the Olympics as far as security is concerned, which do you think in protecting the athletes? Atlanta in 1996, Athens in 2004, Beijing in 2008, London in 2012, and the Winter Olympics in Sochi this year in 2014.
Well, I would imagine that Sochi was the best. I would not be surprised. You know, I cannot really give you an answer because, you know, my life is not such as that I research these things, and follow it ardently, maybe some people do. I don't really have the facts, but I did read quite a few things about the way the Russians planned out Sochi. They really did quite a bit, in terms of activity. I don't know if you, yourself, read some of those stories, but there were quite a few articles published about what they did. They went way out of the way make sure that nothing happened. They also are the country that is in the best position to do something like this because they're not democratic; they can do whatever they want. And they don't have to follow..., or do have to, but they do not follow human rights conventions as most other countries. So I would say they were probably the best, but the other countries, I'm sure, did a lot more than what was done in Munich and I think it gets better as time goes by. There's also something else. If one has terrorism on their mind, they typically will not do the same thing over again. You are most likely to change the pattern, and do something that was done before, rather than imitate something that everybody is prepared for already. What I am trying to say is that at this point, there may be less need to provide such a level of security, because the Olympics aren't in that great of danger. I would not stop any security because of this, but I am just saying, if I were a terrorist, I wouldn't repeat something that was done before; I would do something new.
What would you like to see the IOC do, regarding acknowledging what happened in Munich?
Well, I was one of the people who signed the petition do have the moment of silence at the Opening Ceremony, and I think it should be done. Obviously, any similar gesture is totally welcome, and I think it is necessary. Most individuals think that way, that I know, but for some reason the IOC is very reluctant to go with it, and I am sure part of the reason is because it is very politically motivated, and it might have to do with the fact that there are many Muslim countries who have loud voices within the IOC.
Have you returned to the site, and if so, do you feel Germany has tried to make amends?
I have been to the site, and yes, definitely, very much so. I was at the site actually twice, in 2012. First of all, there was a collaboration between a German and Israeli History Channel and they had a collaborative effort in producing a documentary, and the documentary was centered around people who survived, not the people who perished. It was like a different angle, you know, all the other angles have been explored and they explored this. So they invited myself and other people who were there: the athletics team. The impression that I got was that they were very much... they had a great interest in making amends and exploring this; they were willing to listen to anything, all the blaming and whatever. They came from a perspective of: Please tell us how you feel, what we can do better, how we can make amends and so on and so forth. They were very reconciliatory, and so yes, they were very concerned about that.
I saw somewhere they are building a memorial that is supposed to be finished in 2016. Why do you think it is taking so long for the murdered victims to be recognized?
I don't know, how could I know. What memorial they trying to build I don't know about it. I have no clue but I know Germany is a country that is, in one perspective and one sense, very, very advanced and there are many undercurrents in their culture, and so on and so forth that are rooted in the dark days of Nazism, and you cannot avoid thinking about it. I don't know how much it has to do with the scheduling and yada yada yada. Israel and the Israeli athletes and the Jewish people suffered greatly from this, but if you look at this from a very global perspective, every day in Syria there are 30, 50, or 100 people getting killed and I think it is a little bit naive to expect the entire world to behave as if it is as significant as it is to us. To us it is very significant, but I wouldn't look too much into it. I think that you should focus on a positive aspect, you know, the Germans are ... and it is in their best interest to play their reconciliatory part. I don't know if you should read too much into it. But it's a possibility you know. There are folks there whose interest is antagonistic to ours.
Is there anything else you would like to add that I would put on my website?
You know, I came to Munich as an athlete, and so when this thing happened it is like the whole reality of Judaism and Israeli nation was a political struggle with the Palestinians and all of that and suddenly this superseded the athletic aspect. And there were many people from the Israeli team and many Israelis who thought the Olympic games should have stopped. But I disagree, and I think that what happened happened, and we cannot do anything about it anymore, and whatever can be done about it is being done which is securing the Olympics in a better way to prevent things like this from happening again. But this whole thing happened because of somebody trying to inject politics into sports for their own egotistic or whatever political reasons. The big thing for me as an athlete is to really preserve the Olympic games as some sort of a join in our society that should be preserved. And so I think it was good that the Olympic games continued and it is good that whoever either the Olympic Committee and I think more so the hosting countries are doing much more towards securing the lives and the continuity of the Olympic games. And it's not just because they care so much about the athletes; it has a huge financial aspect to it. If the Olympics don't go according to schedule, there's a whole bunch of losers on a promotion side that is sort of unacceptable to our society. So there is a great deal of interest in making sure the Olympic games deal only with sports and go uninterrupted.
Of course I think about it and I don't know if it changed my life directly a lot except for the fact that I keep thinking about it, you know, how it came about and how the world, Israel, my friends, and I reacted to it so in that way it changed my reality but it also changed quite a bit the reality of how the Olympic Games are conducted, you know, order is no longer assumed; every country, the host, of the Olympics since then has had to put a lot in to security.
Looking back, what do you think your teammates could have done to prevent this tragedy; would you have been allowed to have weapons in the room to defend yourselves?
I do not know if it would help much because by the time people came to whatever it is..., people were sleeping at the time that it happened, so I mean unless you consider the Olympics like a military operation where everybody is going to sleep with their rifle and so on and so forth. The only thing that could have made any difference would be if there was a guard in front of the Israeli residence, but there wasn't.
Do you think the terrorists would have been bold enough to attempt their heinous plan in another country, or was the fact that Germany was being so lax with security a major factor?
I have to tell you that I think it is a non-accurate perception that Germany was lacking in security. You know, I was in two Olympic Games before that and the Olympics in Munich were by far, better organized from the perspective of allowing access into the Olympic Village or rather disallowing access into the Olympic Village for people who shouldn't be there. Every Olympics before that was much more relaxed, much more lax; there was no security whatsoever and it was just one huge sports festival. The Germans tried to do whatever they could to be more organized about it and they were more organized about it, but they didn't have weapon-bearing guards. Nobody had it before; it was the first time it happened. I think the location of Germany, I'm not sure if it was contemplated as such, but remember at the time, you know, the whole Palestinian terrorist thing was just beginning and emerging, you know, before that there were few attacks on Israeli airplanes and things of that nature, but it was really in it's infancy and they were sort of defining their reality based on their imagination and pension for terrorism and grabbing the world's attention. But it wasn't that the Germans did less than anyone else before them; they did more
Is it the responsibility of the International Olympic Committee or the hosting country to make sure that all of the athletes are safe?
I don't really know, I'm not an attorney, and I don't know much about it, but you have to recall that Munich was the first time that this had happened this is when the issue first came to be, there was nothing like this before nobody before took the Olympic platform as a stage for their plight and trying to play it as a political stage. So I don't know if there was any rule but obviously it makes sense that it is the hosting country because the Olympic Committee is very limited in its jurisdiction over local police and things like this. So to me it makes sense and I'm not an attorney but it makes sense that the responsibility lies within the country that won the honor and responsibility of running good Olympics. That would make sense to me; I don't think it is the Olympic Committee.
Have you been to an Olympic Game since Munich?
I have been to Atlanta, to visit some friends and some people on the Israeli team in 1996, and there too was incident and, you know, this was long after the Olympics in Munich. I don't know exactly how much security they had in Atlanta, but trying to prevent some mad person or mad people from doing mayhem is very difficult. The question is to what extent are you going to try and implement whatever it is you are trying to implement? What stops some crazy people from going, for example, on any bus in your town, and starting to kill people? Are you going to put an armed person on each bus all the time? No. If someone has enough chutzpa and enough organizational skills, they can do mayhem anywhere they want. It is very difficult to stop life because somebody can go crazy. So, you know, there is just so much people can do. The unfortunate thing is that at the time, it wasn't even in the mind of people that something like this could happen, so it's very difficult to say what could have been done. Even if there were armed people guarding the fence over which the terrorists jumped into the Olympic Village, it's not like they would put 24-hour guards every 5 meters of the fence. Somebody would go there and walk around and come back and walk around, and people who know what they're doing can sit and wait until this person goes around with his rifle and turns his back, and then jump over the fence, you know. It's very difficult to say what could have happened if whatever, what the Germans could have done. But the Israelis should have had a guard because the Israelis knew that terrorism was a possibility, and as far as I know there was a security person that traveled with his team, but I don't know where he was in that particular instance; I really don't know, I always ask myself this question.
Do you think the Israeli athletes feel safer now at the Olympic Games?
For sure, everybody feels safer now. First of all, the hosting country provides a lot more security; just a control of who goes into the Olympic Village, and who doesn't go into the Olympic Village and all of that stuff. It is much better organized now, the lesson has been learned and it is much more secure. And you have a tag if you don't have a tag you don't go in and there is much better security all over. So I'm sure not only Israelis, but everybody is feeling safer. But I wouldn't be surprised if it is the case that Israel is also asking every hosting country to have some security people with it, armed security people.
If you had to rate the Olympics as far as security is concerned, which do you think in protecting the athletes? Atlanta in 1996, Athens in 2004, Beijing in 2008, London in 2012, and the Winter Olympics in Sochi this year in 2014.
Well, I would imagine that Sochi was the best. I would not be surprised. You know, I cannot really give you an answer because, you know, my life is not such as that I research these things, and follow it ardently, maybe some people do. I don't really have the facts, but I did read quite a few things about the way the Russians planned out Sochi. They really did quite a bit, in terms of activity. I don't know if you, yourself, read some of those stories, but there were quite a few articles published about what they did. They went way out of the way make sure that nothing happened. They also are the country that is in the best position to do something like this because they're not democratic; they can do whatever they want. And they don't have to follow..., or do have to, but they do not follow human rights conventions as most other countries. So I would say they were probably the best, but the other countries, I'm sure, did a lot more than what was done in Munich and I think it gets better as time goes by. There's also something else. If one has terrorism on their mind, they typically will not do the same thing over again. You are most likely to change the pattern, and do something that was done before, rather than imitate something that everybody is prepared for already. What I am trying to say is that at this point, there may be less need to provide such a level of security, because the Olympics aren't in that great of danger. I would not stop any security because of this, but I am just saying, if I were a terrorist, I wouldn't repeat something that was done before; I would do something new.
What would you like to see the IOC do, regarding acknowledging what happened in Munich?
Well, I was one of the people who signed the petition do have the moment of silence at the Opening Ceremony, and I think it should be done. Obviously, any similar gesture is totally welcome, and I think it is necessary. Most individuals think that way, that I know, but for some reason the IOC is very reluctant to go with it, and I am sure part of the reason is because it is very politically motivated, and it might have to do with the fact that there are many Muslim countries who have loud voices within the IOC.
Have you returned to the site, and if so, do you feel Germany has tried to make amends?
I have been to the site, and yes, definitely, very much so. I was at the site actually twice, in 2012. First of all, there was a collaboration between a German and Israeli History Channel and they had a collaborative effort in producing a documentary, and the documentary was centered around people who survived, not the people who perished. It was like a different angle, you know, all the other angles have been explored and they explored this. So they invited myself and other people who were there: the athletics team. The impression that I got was that they were very much... they had a great interest in making amends and exploring this; they were willing to listen to anything, all the blaming and whatever. They came from a perspective of: Please tell us how you feel, what we can do better, how we can make amends and so on and so forth. They were very reconciliatory, and so yes, they were very concerned about that.
I saw somewhere they are building a memorial that is supposed to be finished in 2016. Why do you think it is taking so long for the murdered victims to be recognized?
I don't know, how could I know. What memorial they trying to build I don't know about it. I have no clue but I know Germany is a country that is, in one perspective and one sense, very, very advanced and there are many undercurrents in their culture, and so on and so forth that are rooted in the dark days of Nazism, and you cannot avoid thinking about it. I don't know how much it has to do with the scheduling and yada yada yada. Israel and the Israeli athletes and the Jewish people suffered greatly from this, but if you look at this from a very global perspective, every day in Syria there are 30, 50, or 100 people getting killed and I think it is a little bit naive to expect the entire world to behave as if it is as significant as it is to us. To us it is very significant, but I wouldn't look too much into it. I think that you should focus on a positive aspect, you know, the Germans are ... and it is in their best interest to play their reconciliatory part. I don't know if you should read too much into it. But it's a possibility you know. There are folks there whose interest is antagonistic to ours.
Is there anything else you would like to add that I would put on my website?
You know, I came to Munich as an athlete, and so when this thing happened it is like the whole reality of Judaism and Israeli nation was a political struggle with the Palestinians and all of that and suddenly this superseded the athletic aspect. And there were many people from the Israeli team and many Israelis who thought the Olympic games should have stopped. But I disagree, and I think that what happened happened, and we cannot do anything about it anymore, and whatever can be done about it is being done which is securing the Olympics in a better way to prevent things like this from happening again. But this whole thing happened because of somebody trying to inject politics into sports for their own egotistic or whatever political reasons. The big thing for me as an athlete is to really preserve the Olympic games as some sort of a join in our society that should be preserved. And so I think it was good that the Olympic games continued and it is good that whoever either the Olympic Committee and I think more so the hosting countries are doing much more towards securing the lives and the continuity of the Olympic games. And it's not just because they care so much about the athletes; it has a huge financial aspect to it. If the Olympics don't go according to schedule, there's a whole bunch of losers on a promotion side that is sort of unacceptable to our society. So there is a great deal of interest in making sure the Olympic games deal only with sports and go uninterrupted.